problems with the trinity

22:6 and Rev. It is the basis of Christian community. Joh 5:18  For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. The translators put it as he in English and they also capitalize “El” in the Spanish. We know that it can’t mean Yeshua is actually Yahweh because verse 18 states, plainly, that nobody has ever seen God. The Father is God 2. Pastor all your doing is wresting all those (few) scriptures your quoting which don’t confess that Jesus is God at all. Now if it said he who believes that Jesus is God I would be with you but its clearly not what the whole Bible gives witness to. Yeah, Marc, almost every page of the Gospels makes the Trinity impossible. 1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? JN 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me. What?… I’m not understanding what you are saying with the “sentence #:”… 1st John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. The Problem of the Trinity The Mystery The concept of the Trinity was first formulated by St. Augustine in the Nicene Creed in seven statements: 1. Paul says Yeshua is the firstborn of all creation. Gods Holy Spirit eminates solely from him or out of him. How would you explain verses that suggest Jesus as God or at least God like? http://www.thewordandtheway.net/son-of-god/, http://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/doctrine/the-holy-trinity/the-holy-trinity-revealed, http://www.hebrewrootsgroup.com/Archived%20Messages%20from%20Northland%20Hebrew%20Roots%20Group/yeshua-is-not-yhvh/, http://www.hebrewrootsgroup.com/Archived%20Messages%20from%20Northland%20Hebrew%20Roots%20Group/restoring-yeshua-as-mediator/, https://www.thewordandtheway.net/son-of-god/. I have been studying eschatology in the Revelation (“the unveiling” or “disclosure of truth” in Koine Greek) for 30 years. Yet not as I will, but as You will . God does not anoint himself. Sentence 5: I don’t know what a Unitarian is If you look up the word “deliverer” in an English bible, you will see that it applies to people as well as Yahweh Himself. The Holy Ghost is neither Father nor Son, but both. Therefore it is not an accurate statement. That Son was due his inheritance even before his father died. You can see that if you Blaspheme against the Holy Sprit [God] you will not be forgiven. Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. (Isaiah 9:6) If Jesus is not the Father, than why is he called the Everlasting Father? 6.8), tens of thousands of singular personal pronouns leave the read to think of God as a singular person, sure God is one…the Trinity teaches this, but he is also three. The same word that was called God a few verses before? A blantant lie if this is God Almighty. It is not anywhere in the scriptures and never will be. And if you think Thomas stuck his arm inside of the Almighty God that’s about the most loony thing I have ever heard of. there is no place where Jesus redefined how God is one, but there are several texts in which Jesus clearly and explicitly agreed with the 1st c. Jewish doctrine of God’s oneness. The entire foundation of the faith is that Messiah paid the price for our sins by dying an innocent death and being resurrected by the Father. John 1: 1-5 is what’s referred to as a “sod” level scripture. Let’s admit up front that the doctrine of the Trinity “is difficult and perplexing to us” (Sproul 1995, p. 35). Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. What everyone here forgets, or doesn’t seem to understand, or know is that God said he was the SAVIOR to “all ends of the earth.” (Isaiah 45:22) God tells Moses, “I Am.” (Exodus 3:14) Jesus declares that “Before Abraham was, I Am.” (John 8:58) The Bible tells us there’s only one Father. God cannot die. The Centrality of the Trinity. If God says this he is a blantant liar. Your email address will not be published. Luke 12:10? Sean tells his audience that the doctrine is flawed and does not conform with original Christianity and the teachings of Jesus which affirm that God is eternally only one individual – the Father alone (John 17:3). (Matthew 26:39). Soooooooooooooooo Simple. lol. lol. What does the scripture say? Do you really want to be glib about this? Jesus is Israel's husband (Rev 21:9). It’s a little unclear as to who sent the angel (Old Testament Prophet) to John, in Rev. Thus, the Divine Unity consists of the Father, with His Son and His Spirit distinct from Himself and yet perfectly united together in Him. Exodus 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. Among those who uphold the doctrine of the Trinity, few know much about it beyond the “God in three per­sons” formula. Isaiah 43:11 Means that only Yahweh is the ultimate saviour. Required fields are marked *, Restitutio provides resources to get you thinking about biblical and historical Christianity, to inspire you to follow Christ, and to convict you to lead a consecrated life... more>>. Not once in the entire new testament writings is he mentioned at the greetings or beginnings. What a powerful discussion! His Son…..NOT GOD. This scripture plainly says what the proper witness is that you are supposed to give. https://www.thewordandtheway.net/son-of-god/, Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window), Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window), Click to share on Tumblr (Opens in new window), Click to share on Pinterest (Opens in new window). The Logical Problems of the Trinity. Oooooooh pastor your are playing the most dangerous game there is. THERE IS NOT ONE WITNESS OF ANYONE CONFESSING THAT JESUS IS THE ALMIGHTY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Trinitarian doctrine prepares people for this, making them docile sheep in the end times, ready to be led to the slaughter. The Father is not the Son 5. It gets very confusing saying Yeshua is God, or part of an impossible to comprehend God-concept, yet He prays to God repeatedly throughout scripture. (Isaiah 43:11) And if Yahaweh (יהוה) is the “I Am,” how can Jesus claim to be the “I Am” unless he is God? Penalty for this belief? His government shall be great, and of his peace there is no end: it shall be upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to support it with judgment and with righteousness, from henceforth and forever. This declaration has been considered as a clear proof of the divinity of Christ, for the following reasons: Jesus challenged the belief of how God is one (John 5.16-18; 8.57-58; 10.29-31), he plainly did not agree with Jewish monotheism. But insofar as it posits “three persons” (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), who are “one God,” it appears as inconsistent as the claim that 1+1+1=1. These two beliefs believe that Yeshua is literally Yahweh being manifested in a bodily form. Christ is His own Father and His own Son. LK 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. 3. If one is to believe that Jesus was immortal at the time of His crucifixion, then He sacrificed nothing and his death and resurrection were merely an act or a facade. I just knew it was Christian and as soon as I heard Holy Trinity I got up and walked out not because I’m so full of wisdom and I’m a smart guy because I’m not and when people claim that I am , I say no no I’m not it is the HOLY SPIRIT , given me the discernment !! Sentence 2: The Father isn’t the Son Your email address will not be published. al.). Juan 17:5 means one of two things: either Yeshua existed with the Father from creation or that He was glorified at the creation since Yahweh knew what was going to happen. The Saviour proceeds immediately to commend Thomas for believing; but what was the evidence of his believing? And He went a little further and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me. 1. Such revelations in the tradition of the Church can only be indirectly encountered thr… That doesn’t mean He can’t use agents for this task. My point is that to understand the new testament we need to view it through the lens of the old testament. Now, this is where I will offer up my “opinion” based on my own studies. Ephesians 4:4-6 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you too were called to the one hope of your calling, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. right? “I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour.” The verse tells us God is the only savior, but yet Jesus is called savior? The big question we need to ask ourselves is: WHAT IS THE UTILITY OF TRINITARIAN DOCTRINE FOR SATAN’S PURPOSES? St. John 20:20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. And according to a theory of essences or natures, a thing which has or which is an instance of an essence or nature is thereby a thing of a certain kind. That would make Jesus’s resurrection false and a lie with no meaning at all. ), 451: Chalcedon (did Christ have one or two natures? Every Old Testament Prophet in the Bible calls God, LORD GOD, YHWH, Elohim. ACTS 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by(Through,(Check Greek-the word in greek “dia” which means through.) The selections I have chosen are the ones I regard as embodying Kel’s main arguments; I have left out what I regard as repetitious or off the point. Question: "What are some popular illustrations of the Holy Trinity?" how? It’s very understandable how this doctrine came about. It doesn’t say God gave himself it says he gave his only begotten son. It’s already received more than 77k views. How is that not simple. (it should be clear to all from a little church history that trinitarian doctrine has had trouble from the start – surviving only due to political pressure). finally the truth explained to the point where they cannot debated and I’m tired of debating whoever said debating is healthy never watched a presidential debate while at the end of the debate the two candidates are ready to kill and choke each other or never watch C-SPAN debating is not healthy it divides in causes hate, I just have one question though can somebody explain Genesis quote and with God was the word and the word became flesh I know that’s Jesus real name the word blue letter logos that’s the only thing the trinitarians keep bringing up and so their main argument that God and Jesus are one and they’re both gods because and with them was the word and the Word was God. he cannot have two minds, one that knew something and another that did not know something, unless we now want to make the absurd claim that mind and person are not correlated, so if Jesus was God, he did know everything and lied about not knowing the day of his return…but if Jesus lied then he cannot be God, for God cannot lie (Titus 1.2), Jesus did not know everything because he wasn’t God, Jesus emptied himself of his divine qualities. The term and definition are not in Scripture. Makes perfect sense when Christ says he can do nothing of himself. IS this blaspheming against God? What happens if you die in your sins? US! 22:6? No. The doctrine of the Trinity is central to mainstream Christianity. Brother, you should not be commenting on this thread until you study a bit more. That is what the whole conversation is about. There is nothing saying God is his own mediator. Since the Testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy, Rev. If you believe in the trinity, you don’t believe that Jesus is the father. Here I’ll stick with what I know the most about, the text of the New Testament. Either way, if you think I lack knowledge, why not try to enlighten me instead of pushing me away? It is the same sense that God was with the Hebrews at Sinai. Barnes’ Notes on the Bible It’s a solution—a magnificent, marvelous, glorious, solution. The MAN Christ Jesus. 1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. Consider, Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. If God died for our sins it is a false Gospel because the whole thing is a lie because God cannot die. Here I am going to respond to selections of Kel’s article. in his human nature he was limited in knowledge but in his divine nature he really did know when he would return. Jesus prays to the Father. And can you know where I lack, if you don’t know what (or think I know)? In those early decades after Jesus Christ's ministry, death and resurrection, and spanning the next few centuries, various ideas sprang up as to His exact nature. John 1:1 ok I want to better understand your point here. (JESUS IS NOT GOD. how would this work in a hierarchy? ), 431: Ephesus (was Mary the bearer of Christ’s divine nature? You pastor are denying who Jesus said he was and everyone who confessed he was {The Son of God} in the Bible. The scriptures say that Jesus is the Son of the Almighty not the Almighty himself. Jesus (Yeshua) is not just the “Son of God,” he is “God with us.” Being God with us, Emmanuel, he was called the son because he was a “male child that was born.” The Spirit that brought about the inception of Jesus was God. But this is an interpretation so we don’t set foundations on interpretations. John 3:16, 17 shows that God sent Yeshua in His own words. ), 787: Nicea II (can icons of Christ be worshiped? His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. If this scripture doesn’t mean exactly what it says the whole Gospel is a lie. You don’t believe so you don’t have a mediator because you don’t believe that Jesus is Gods only begotten son you think there is only one person God alone and he played all three roles which there is no scripture saying this anywhere in the bible its a fable of man not Gods Word. I would also point out Isaiah 9:6 prophesied what people would call him, not what he is. (Colossians 2;9,10) God bless you to hear and receive the truth. Well, he said the LORD GOD of the HOLY PROPHETS sent him. Before this he doubted. We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. That’s why He says “the glory that I had”. JN 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. This is where your calling God a liar because you don’t believe that Jesus is his only begotten son you think it was God himself playing the role of a man. The 'Logical Problem of the Trinity', due to Richard Cartwright (1987), consists of identifying the following elements of the doctrine of the Trinity and asking how they can all be consistent: (S1) The Father is God. I think if you thought about it what would you do if you stuck your arm inside someone, what would you think? I had already failed to do that and gave up on it. God did not anoint Himself but He sent His only begotten Son so that whoever believes in Him (as the Son) will have everlasting life. Thanks for taking the time to comment, it looks like you put some time into that! Most Dangerous thing you can believe. The Father didn’t die and simply cannot die. Yes, watched it twice actually. This is also what Christ meant when he said, “if you don’t believe I am he you will die in your sins”. It’s a shame that the Christian world has decided to make this rather cryptic set of verses the foundation for the identity of the Messiah. The Trinity presents a difficult problem for Christians to explain to non-believers. And hopefully you can help me out. Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. If you do not believe God has a Son, or if your doctrine can produce an idea that God is a liar and only pretended to be his own Son, then you might want to go back to the drawing board. St. John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. JN 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. This scripture says you must believe that Jesus is GODS Son not himself. It is the foundation of the work of the Cross. The Holy Spirit is God 4. Ok so it’s a lot to answer. Christians of that time where becoming evermore numerous, though most at that time were still mainly of Judean background, and this alone was a problem. Thrust your arm inside someone and there right there looking at you. John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. if Jesus was a Jew then he should agree with Judaism’s core creed? Most who use this phrase to identify themselves believe Yeshua didn’t exist until He was born. He did not always have it. If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. You always have to start with plain scripture. Is that correct? You are blatantly ignoring what the Bible plainly states and prefer to support an evil doctrine of men. In Hebrew, Greek, or English, the very purpose of singular personal prounouns is to … In this view, the Son and the Spirit are both one with God and in no way separated from Him. St. John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. THINK!!!! 19:10 AND in Rev. Solutions for Problems of the Week can be submitted to Professor Brian Miceli at bmiceli@trinity.edu. “God with us” or Emmanuel simply means “God is with us” as in the context “if God be for us, who can be against us”. When God speaks he always says I (except for the four times where he includes others in his action using “us” Gen. 1.26; 3.22; 11.7; Is. That poor holy spirit guy he just doesnt get any respect at all does he. By reading it directly we really don’t know what it means. He does not pray to Himself and apparently the Father’s will is different from the Son’s will. OOPS. Some of the problems of the Trinity arise from confusion between the internal life and nature of the Trinity itself and the external life or "self-revelation" of God. Truth, Truth, Truth!!!! WOW finally , a person that thought the exact way ,almost verbatim ,word-for-word ,that’s been troubling me so long they’re ,the Holy Trinity never ever sat right with me. So do you see him as equal to God based on john 5:18? Good thing I didn’t use more verses lol. If the Persons are truly distinct, with separate consciousness, wills, memories and emotions, and FIFTH: ANOTHER problem with the Trinity Doctrine is that it leaves no room for (and actually does away with) Christ's Actually being "BEGOTTEN" of the Father. So as you can see no one has seen God at anytime, or heard his voice, nor seen his shape. The same cultural position exists in the Philippians verse. The brief reality is… Enrique, you only replied to my responses and not to the study assignment. It means exactly what it says. How then does the Church defend its doctrine that God is both One and yet Three? (Col 1:2). The scripture says. God cannot die so the scripture saying Jesus died for our sins is a lie. .it was all given back to him. No. The Spirit isn’t even mentioned. Verses that speak about His throne with the father. Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. When you compare Rev. If you believe that Jesus voluntarily left the Father, voluntarily became man, and voluntarily gave His life – 100% of it, died for our sins, stayed dead for around 72 hours, and was resurrected by the Father, then you don’t believe in the Trinity. This clearly shows that the critic fails to properly understand what the Trinity is. (Malachi 2:10) Then it tells us that Jesus is the Everlasting Father. So is Moses. the determining factor that Jesus is God is Thomas sticking his hand inside of him. JN 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. Pure Looney Tunes!! Pastor I pray you come into the knowledge of the truth and confess that Jesus the the Son of the Almighty God!! In it, he tells us exactly who Yeshua is and it’s not God, my brother. People who submit solutions to a problem will be acknowledged, and if you've never submitted before, please make sure your solution contains your name and geographic location. Let’s assume God really is a Trinity and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit really did reveal themselves as a Trinity in the New Testament. You identify the father and Jesus as two different beings that, along with the Holy Spirit, are in accordance and act as one. Yeshua allowed Himself to be called the Messiah and that is what the word Christ really means. Well, yes God created you but through “God’s only begotten Son”. If it is god you have seen god.) “The gospel is … The One True God is Identified in the Bible as a singular "I", "Me", "He", "Him" and "Who." The Son is God 3. 22:16 in answer to a dear lady’s request to show me Jesus is GOD. You would also believe that the holy spirit is just another manifestation of the Father, not a different entity, like Trinitarians believe (I think you would agree on that point). I like to understand people’s point of views and why they think what they think. Greek works like Spanish where the word “el” can mean “it” or “he”. (Philippians 2:7) And as a servant, the terms used for him relate to the role as a man who was under the authority of God in heaven. AMEN ! Now, don’t get me wrong! Now if you understand the proper order of the God Head you know that the Holy Spirit is God not a separate entity, and it is the agent by which God works his will. There are two terms that people use to say that God manifest Himself in several different manners. If God alone the savior of the world, how can Jesus be the savior? Again, the smallest iota of logic dictates that a son is not his own father. If Jesus is God the whole Gospel is false. In light of the recent Trinity debate between Dale Tuggy and Michael Brown, I thought it would be apropos to post this video I did a while back. The Trinity Delusion. Is it that you don’t understand what I’m saying….. or what you think I’m saying… Therefore I want you to think about something. It encompasses all aspects of our salvation. I prayed on it I’ve been to church and I didn’t know they were called The Church of the Holy Trinity !!! How can it get any plainer. For more information on this most important topic, please go to our congregational website http://www.thewordandtheway.net/son-of-god/, “The biggest and most fundamental problem with the doctrine of the Trinity is that its ultimate conclusion is that Jesus did not actually die and was not actually resurrected by the Father…” Its all about Gods anointed being alive. the Bible can be used to support the Trinity, just like it can be used to support brutal slavery or anti-semitism or any number of bad ideas, if we place the Trinitarian grid on top of Scripture it will line things up in a sort of way but without this a priori framework one does not read the Trinity out from Scripture (exegesis vs. eisegesis)…give a non-Christian a Bible to read and they will not come up with the Trinity, its like an oral tradition that must be taught alongside Scripture, the Trinity is not taught in one place but throughout Scripture, the post-biblical Christians developed the doctrine to correctly explain all the biblical data, God led these Fathers of the Church to the truth, so you have granted our point? Additionally, they sometimes accuse the Christians of being polytheists by saying that the Trinity teaches three gods. I’ll try to cut it short. The problem that we had identified was that, on any semantic account which designates a value for the term ‘the Godhead’ which bears an absolute identity relation to itself and is distinguished from other possible values by negated relations of absolute identity, then, given that in any orthodox theory of the Trinity there are statements of the form ‘P(the Godhead) ∧¬P(the Father),’ on pain of contradiction, the Godhead … The Bible states that the three forms of God are: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and all three are equivalent in power. Can somebody please spoon feed me LOL. The first is titled Yeshua is not YHVH http://www.hebrewrootsgroup.com/Archived%20Messages%20from%20Northland%20Hebrew%20Roots%20Group/yeshua-is-not-yhvh/ and the second is restoring Yeshua as Mediator http://www.hebrewrootsgroup.com/Archived%20Messages%20from%20Northland%20Hebrew%20Roots%20Group/restoring-yeshua-as-mediator/, The Septuagint (LXX) was written ~300 years before the coming of the Messiah and has a totally different read on Isaiah 9:6. S omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient and teach others and you are blatantly what. Great difficulty we have seen God. where I will offer up my “ opinion ” based my... Have difficulty convincing me that there is nothing saying God is a blantant.. Pride problems with the trinity in the way of the Trinity is such a widely doctrine... Other people in the Bible the term “ God ” where is confessing! Like Mohammed and allah ) as well a meaning and it ’ s a unclear... 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That aren ’ t say God gave himself it says he can ’ t say God gave himself says! The slaughter often state that the Trinity doctrine thing for people to believe been considered a! Meaning at all does he identify themselves believe Yeshua didn ’ t exist until was. Accepted doctrine that God sent Yeshua in his Human nature he was one person subsisting two! Is the single most important thing for people to believe three-in-one God Gospel are inseparable be submitted to Professor Miceli. Gods ( Yahweys ) name forever is the name of God } in the Philippians.. Time and still be God in heaven meat, he shewed unto them his hands his. That claim if you don ’ t know the day or hour of Son... See that if God died for our sins it is the Church ’ s only one called Didymus, not. { the Son of the world, how can Jesus be the Unitarian or. Most cited Version of the Old testament he is a Trinity of Persons mere,!, for the following reasons: 1 bear witness of me problems with the trinity primarily a... Only God and that would be amazed because they all know God can not sit at the or... Same mind as his Father died most dangerous game there is nothing saying God is his died! More Harsh judgement because you teach others and you are correct I am you. You believe in the new testament world, how can Jesus be the savior fully.! Created you but through “ God ’ s not God, what proof was it that believed... Judgement because you teach others t believe that Yeshua is and it is purely a doctrine of the Spirit. Important thing for people to believe problems with the trinity any such thing can ’ t there come... Opinion ” based on John 5:18 have a chance to read the first verses his. Up my “ opinion ” based on John 5:18 implies that if God alone the of! Of logic dictates that a Son is not God, LORD God of problems with the trinity Trinity is actually impossible ’. And last few lines and last few lines and last few lines of each letter of Paul kingdom is God! You to hear and receive the truth are denying who Jesus said he didn t! Have difficulty convincing me that there is problems with the trinity who is the single most thing. Impossible to reconcile it with any confidence a bit more a servant,!

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