materialists and non-materialists alike. Universe at one point did not exist, and in the future it will be nonexistant again, therefore sucessfully negating my peers position that it has always existed. The short of it is that when it comes to material reality, quantum mechanics tells us that the universe has either always existed (and will always exist) or that time itself isn't fundamental in which some quantum material just exists with time perception being a phenomenon of our consciousness. However. as follows: Interesting; I would have defined the universe as ‘all the matter and energy that exists’—and materialists (which the majority of scientists are today, The universe, unlike the Creator, does not create; at least it does not create something from nothing. In another thread, a Christian said: "The universe even by most secular theories did not always exist." (“A set is a gathering together into a whole of definite, distinct objects of our perception and of our thought—which are called material (we would say created) world only, but then at the same time, you have assumed the existence of God as a discrete entity within set theory—all for the purpose of He needs to renew his intelligence. What could change that is not part of the universe in order t bring it about? mass-energy entities in existence’, i.e the same as the one I gave above. Let me put it another way. I would have simply said "nonsense is still nonsense , whether you say it about God or anything else!" unseen, bounded or unbounded. danyu1. all sets’ is clearly inappropriate. What that means is that as you go backwards in time, you eventually run out of time (or, more accurately, out of spacetime). I once heard it explained by  Ravi Zacharias . Astronomy and Astrophysics Questions and Answers, The Genesis Academy: A 12-part teaching series on Genesis 1–11, The Bible declares: In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. It went something like this: If you were walking on a planet searching for life and you came across a geometrical pyramid, you may be able to explain how over years of tectonic plate shifting, and so on, that the planet has slowly created this pyramid. Consider your examples of human emotions and classical music styles; surely if one is debating a materialist, he/she would claim that these consist of descriptions of things or abstract representations of things which do in fact emanate from (and form a part of) the world of matter and energy. I wonder why. I was well into adulthood before I was hit with the concept of the universe as being something distinctly separate from God, and that God exists outside it. For example, if you burn a log in the fire you get ash and heat. It is a form of argument from universal causation. Jolie becomes trending topic after dad's pro-Trump rant. The rest - created? Or, if we say that God has always existed, why not save a step and conclude that the universe has always existed?” ― Carl Sagan, Cosmos. Check your email! If anything existed then some form of universe existed, therefore, a changing universe has always existed up to … God - eternal, non material, creator & 2. Ted G. from the UK wrote in response to Don Batten’s article Who created God? With little refinement the theory has withstood testing, experimentation and observatuon. I agree the debate is somewhat bizarre, but it is probably important to seek to answer folk on their own terms, and it appears to have rung bells for many others from these comments. Asked by: Pete Sears, Australia. Atheists agree that our universe was started by a “Big Bang.”  The disagreement comes when we ask what made all the noise. The universe has always been here. [URL deleted as per feedback rules]. The Fool on the hill. What is more difficult? There has also been a revival of interest in the “tunneling proposal,” an alternative way that the universe might have arisen from nothing, conceived in the ’80s independently by the Russian-American cosmologists Alexander Vilenkin and Andrei Linde. In short, you can’t have Your definition in the way you seek to use it turns out to be totally circular, committing the logical fallacy known as begging the question, The singularity theorems produced by Steven Hawking and Roger Penrose and expanded upon by Arvind Borde, Alan H. Guth, and Alexander Vilenkin, show that an expanding universe (or multiverse) must have a beginning of matter, energy, space and time. The topic is incredibly complex and wonderfully intricate. But even the sun will run out of energy some day — as is the same with every star. . The question only fits inside the confines of time and in that the universe has always existed. Until now the dominant scientific view is that, somewhere around 13 billion years ago, there was a single point which exploded (AKA, the 'Big Bang'). beginning and such a beginning needs a sufficient cause that is non-material (in order to be self-existing/eternal). In General Relativity, the Big Bang is a spacetime singularity. Thank you Dr. Carl for this article. So I find it odd that some are really willing to risk their life on such improbability. Is this true? In set theory, (which is presumably the framework from which you derive the meaning of the word ‘set’) a set consists of objects. So we revert to the definition of the universe as follows (recognizing today that matter and energy are interchangeable): First, it matters not whether all of this is observable or not. Genesis 1:1, Composed at least hypothetically of mass/energy, or. Just to reiterate: the universe (all matter/energy) cannot have always existed (been eternal) because of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Second, it can’t be said that this is a self-serving definition designed by Christians for Christians, since it is one that can be (and has been) agreed upon by It doesn't make sense that the universe is about 13.8 billion years old. (always has energy) 5. It has helped me clear my misunderstanding. Harmless symptom was actually lung cancer Of course, you might argue that you are simply saying ‘for the sake of the argument’, that ‘if God exists’ He must be part of the set of all sets. Understood, though the Word does say 'answer a fool according to his folly' :-) Seriously, the thought behind publishing was that it might contain useful teaching points, as perceived by some in this whole thread. Ash and heat are less usable forms of energy than the log you started out with. Quantum science says you ALWAYS have existed and ALWAYS will exist ... Dr David Hamilton said all consciousness is and always has been in the universe … Because if you presuppose God at all, then since by definition, God is not a part of the universe He created, you can’t Unfortunately, these peculiarities can very often lead to very common misconceptions. Ether out universe has always existed in its current state, or it has always existed in a small form before the big bang. Some have postulated that the universe has always existed, so there is no "beginning" of the universe (such as Steady state theory or static universe formulations), however the observational evidence is agreed upon by the cosmological community to best support the Big Bang universe. There is no way for a thing to happen before the first moment of Time, because things only happen within Time, and there is no Time which exists … Aquinas's argument from contingency allows for the possibility of a Universe that has no beginning in time. 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